MDBT42 + breakout

Hi Gordon

You mentioned in a previous thread about potentially selling the the MDBT42 and breakout. If you did decide to sell that, how long would it be until that was available, and how much might they cost individually?

I'm asking because I have potentially a big project on the horizon and the MDBT42 would be perfect for it, but until I've finished prototyping, I doubt I'd need to order enough that I could buy direct.
Log course having the espruino env on the MDBT42 would make the project even easier too.

+1 for MDBT42 + breakout.

Realistically it'd be a few months from now. I've got to get a few outstanding projects finished before I take on anything else.

I imagine I'd have to sell them at around the $10 mark, going down a bit with volume. I can't go too low with the price as I'll have had to have spent the money up front buying at least 1000 of them.

On the breakout board, it depends. If I didn't solder, so literally just supplied modules and breakout boards, they'd end up being maybe $2 each, if that. If I had to get someone to solder them on then the price would go right up though.

This may influence your interest in the idea...

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13990

I know - IMO it's more about getting Espruino pre-installed on it. Usually it's a pain because it's extremely unlikely that the board will ship with Nordic's latest secure bootloader - so you're probably looking at uploading with an external SWD programmer.

Interesting that they're not using a module (so almost certainly not CE/FCC certified), but are still charging $20 for it :)

+1 for MDBT42 + breakout.
With possible international suppliers responsibility for prep of Espurino .
I was wanting something like this but had deceided that buying Espurino products was my best effort to support.

If no one else has looked at the device in connection with bootloader, I would like to get one with the effort to get an Espruino product if Gordon wants it to happen.

Has anyone a source for the MDBT42 that is quick to presss pay and receive?

@OwenBrotherwood https://www.seeedstudio.com/MDBT42Q-nRF52832-based-BLE-module-p-2736.html

No idea if they can have the firmware uploaded out of the box, which I think Gordon was alluding to.

@Gordon have you thought about doing a https://www.massdrop.com/ to help carry the cost burden.

http://www.raytac.com/product_detail.php?id=68 so ok.

27 euros to get it to DK within a few days.
If I order more than 1, I get hit by taxes

I wait until Saturday as to if I order one: someone may already have established the bootloader

I don't believe those ones come with a bootloader - so you'd have to wire up SWD and program them that way.

It looks like it might be a bit techy for massdrop? something like that might be cool though - effectively meaning I could just get them made and post them off to someone else for shipping - it'd be a real help.

I've had very little luck with non-kickstarter pre-orders though - usually a lot of effort, and quite a high percentage of people change their mind in the month between paying and getting their stuff.

Dependent on time and "life"...
Either the nRF52832
or wait a bit and
https://www.nordicsemi.com/eng/Products/nRF52840 when raytac may have a product at the right price
Preparations with pcb thoughts for either part is probably the best investment in time just now as a pcb could contain either of the components.

A couple of links to keep some thoughts in one place:

If the price is the same, are there sufficient advantages to wait for a supplier for the nRF52840
https://www.nordicsemi.com/eng/Products/Bluetooth-low-energy/nRF52832
https://www.nordicsemi.com/eng/Products/nRF52840

If the need for a breakout is "now", can the two products use the same PCB.

Experience with a nRF52840 Note that the board is Preview
https://www.nordicsemi.com/eng/Products/nRF52840-Preview-DK
Europe: https://www.rutronik24.com/product/nordic/nrf52840-pdk/8266970.html
USA: http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=65644
Digi-key: http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=nRF52840 not available "just now"

At this time, http://www.raytac.com/ has no nRF52840 and probably first after Preview.

Bootloader unknown on raytac: I have a raytac module that I can try and hook up to see if it has a bootloader (if I can find it and if I can find a magnifiying glass to be able to see the pins)
http://www.raytac.com/download/MDBT40/MDBT40%20spec-Version%20A5.pdf

What is wanted from the PCB: some input is needed so that the most effective solution for Gordon is obtained.
I have some ideas but I am new "here" so I want to see what the community is asking for ..

Edit:
http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=61707 IMM-NRF52832
It looks like an easier access to pins contra Raytac. I have not examined any other factor for the device. "making all its I/O available via 35 SMD/Through hole 1.27mm pitch pads." THROUGH HOLE: easier access to pins!!!!
http://www.i-syst.com/pdf/IMM-NRF52832_RefMan.pdf
This device has GREAT promise, all things being equal with pcb breakout already available.
They also document the need for bootloader : racal is a bit more unknown.
I concentrate a bit on this device. :( price is quite high
Edit: found another price $18 for IMM-NRF52832
https://www.tindie.com/products/hnhoan/n­rf52832-ant-bluetooth-le-arm-cortex-m4f-­30-io/ $12 each for 1000+ :)
https://www.tindie.com/stores/hnhoan/
Looks like a probable difference of price n­rf52832 to nRF52840 of less than $4 "at the write time"

I-SYST inc.
212-6415 Corbiere
Brossard, Qc.
Canada J4Z 0H7
email: info@i-syst.com

Hi i-syst, Is there a supplier for the IMM-NRF52832 in Europe that
also has the device in stock? Also the IBK-BLUEIO - Breakout board.
Are there any plans for a IMM- nRF52840 within the next month or so
with a possible price difference within 5 dollars? Best regards Owen
Brotherwood Denmark

http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=61707

Price difference for basic part (while not knowing what CIAA-R contra other versions means) indicates double price ie difference of about $2 with possible percentage difference for a device of type "ratac" (or other similiar)
http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=63944 NRF52832-CIAA-R $2.89
http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=65645 NRF52840-QIAA-R $4.44

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Personally I think the nRF52840 is just a nRF52832 with more flash and RAM - but I wonder whether you need it? I mean, it's not like people are really running out of memory with Puck.js at the moment.

It definitely won't be the same price as the 32 either :)

In terms of a board, I'd say:

• Place to solder a CR2032 battery
  
• 0.1" pins
  
• Pins for serial in the 'standard' FTDI pinout
  
• Maybe a snap-off area at the end with an NFC aerial?
  
  

Any thoughts about a 3.3v regulator? It'd mean you could run it off of 5v or a LiPo, but it would also draw power, so would reduce battery life.

I was looking thru the docs, for some reason I do it a lot just now, and I did not find a MDBT42 device (https://github.com/espruino/EspruinoDocs/tree/master/devices ).
Why would I want to find it?
As a device, the MDBT42 is not a board but a component one may wish to add to some hardware to run espruino (https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=54020) or to an espruino board as a coprocessor (either running espruino or RTOS).
I would suggest that the MDBT42 and MDBT41 be added as a device so that easy PR's can help me find out how to investigate what bootloader is available on the MDBT41 I have in preperation for the MDBT42 (or MDBT5X :) )
I can start with a basic picture doc and pdf as a PR which then can be added to by the people who really know what they are doing.

http://forum.espruino.com/comments/13446397/ is updated with information, in particular, a guess at price difference for two boards with 42 contra 50.
Note that the post will be edited for a while but this is the last time I draw notice to the fact.
PR for component MTBT42 MTBT41 is "ready" if I the community thinks it a good idea.

It would definitely make sense to add it if I started selling the devices themselves.

If you did want to add something, if you could do it in Markdown format (not PDF) it'd make it a lot easier to add to.

Possibly I should just have a folder in EspruinoDocs for 'in progress' documentation? Or to be honest just posting on the forum seems good enough - it's probably more likely to be searchable than a document buried in the repositories somewhere.

PR would be in Markdown with full compliance to what I can see in docs repro for devices.
Basically the same difference as the http://www.espruino.com/ESP8266 as a espruino board contra a device one can use with espruino where the nFR5x is just another component in what ever one wants to achieve with espruino on or using a nRF5x in it's most basic form before being just a very very small chip without crystal or other components necessary for it's operation.

Bootloader
https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/question/108116/nrf52-dk-external-programming-mdbt42q/
https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/question/91981/using-third-party-nrf52/

http://www.raytac.com/download/MDBT42/MDBT42Q-Version%20B.pdf

@Adam79 had previously found the price of $10 https://www.seeedstudio.com/MDBT42Q-nRF52832-based-BLE-module-p-2736.html contra the $28 http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=61707 which could have been easier for pin connection.

Edit: now $18 for IMM-NRF52832 https://www.tindie.com/products/hnhoan/nrf52832-ant-bluetooth-le-arm-cortex-m4f-30-io/

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If you're ordering a few you can get them as samples from Raytac - but while they're cheaper you'll get stung for postage.

As far as I know there is no bootloader - so the best way to flash them would be to buy an nRF52DK and wire SWD to the programming headers.

Any thoughts on a way for me to get a bunch of pre-orders together? If I could get 100 or so it could be worth me making a programming jig - obviously if I sell them with Espruino and a bootloader installed it makes life a lot easier!

I have two nRF52DK's at the moment: so Denmark is "easy" for possible help in connection with time and POC.
I have also some friends that are getting more and more hooked with nRF52's contra Pi's so there are hands available.

Edit:
I have a lot of thoughts as to how to get an order of over 100 units : WIP
My drains have gone so I spend this weekend digging up the garden so I will try and leave bread crumbs for my thoughts in the various forums and guage reaction.

Edit:
With information, I can create the jig in Denmark if wished as this could be a good usage of my time and enable me to obtain new knowledge and save Gordon time so that things are possible.
The jig could then be sent to Gordon in return for some "stuff"

As the puck.js is using the raytac and as I-Syst has not replied to my email then some form of collection of a nr of raytacs would be great.
As to getting to 100, then this is "interesting".
If Gordon can at least get a nr of devices to europe and can distribute as raw, with mark up for costs, then it could be a way forward where the device is used as one wishes with aim for the breakout.
What would I give for a europe price for one raw device? maybe about 7 euros excl p/p as a round price. Would also be happy paying less as I would need to buy a magnifying glass for the connections on the raytac.
PCB solution, let us say about 14 euros excl p/p for device and pcb
nRF52-DK sets top price for what is on board at 40 euros (the price of a Pi3) so an interesting device with bells and whistles is about 30 euros.

Edit micro:bit is about 15 euros that give a puck.bit at about 20 euros

From my point of view, at 7 euros each it's not worth me doing. You can't even buy them unprogrammed for that.

For that I'll have to import them and pay tax, then spend a minute minimum getting the board out, programming it, then packing it back up and posting it.

And for those 100 boards I'd have to create and maintain a separate build as well.

On top of that, 1% will be lost, some will be soldered up wrong and blown up and I'll be asked for refunds, and then there'll be support. I'll be losing money on each one sold :(

Perhaps the best solution is to offer a kit - maybe 3x modules and 3x breakout boards (not soldered) for 35 euros. That could be worthwhile I guess?

It is the classic "what will the customer pay" and what do I want to earn and how much time to earn :)

I only put up prices to get the ball moving :)

I think that kits sound good: 35/2 gives a good enough price where the third is great if one has not made a mistake in soldering etc so one has at least 2 that work when one is finished doing what one wants.
So now it is a question of what the breakout boards could hold.
It looks like SMD and can one have place for a couple of other interesting SMD's so that the kit is tight and one can perhaps make a cube.js where one has a main pcb stacked on top of, for example, RN2483 and perhaps another board for power or other things.
Finish of in a nice black cube case for those that wish to do so.

Edit:
Power : PLEASE, some rechargeable coin/small battery solution: can make the cube go a bit cube on large base square but that is the price to pay to help the environment/get rid of cables.
Batteries cost extra

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I know the component is not the nRF52, but a raytac so I can begin to visualise sizes as upverter has some nice diagram pcb 3d quickies .
The rest of the work is fill in the dots.

https://upverter.com/OwenBrotherwood/4a5b41325e807fb1/cubejs/

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As allready indicated with a form for module based building blocks, back to
nRF52840 v's nRF52832

BBC micro:bit failed in connection with ram: onboard python does not fit with BLE support.
One never knows when something where more ram/flash good to have (other aspects of v5 of bluetooth are not analysed)

If the main nRF5x pcb can support both, and one has not too much stock of 52832, an upgrade is a commodity exploit so hackers can have fun with more for about the same price.

A question of timing and not underestimating the future demands of a well thought out product.

Breadcrumbs: bear with me.
https://support.microbit.org/support/solutions/articles/19000026080-can-i-use-the-micro-bit-with-scratch-over-bluetooth
Leads to http://www.picaxe.com/BBC-microbit/ and a sale of a serial to bluetooth usb device
http://www.picaxe.com/BLED112-Bluetooth-USB-Dongle/
http://www.picaxestore.com/index.php/en_gb/bled112.html £10

Given a good basic pcb, one could achieve:
a nice thing for a pc overcoming the present Windows problems with ble/usb (at some stage maybe not a problem anymore)
A gateway between the pi (which runs ble) and micro:bits with python that are propriety nRF radio for play and learn with such exotic things as a lead less version of
http://www.techradar.com/how-to/computing/how-to-make-a-minecraft-gesture-controller-with-the-bbc-micro-bit-1318077

A local british supplier of components needed for other uses than the immediate espruino type usage