• @alexanderbrevig

    One concern with using npm (especially if npm install is not done each upload, which would then probably add some overhead in the time it takes to upload) would be that it kind of encourages quick fixes per user. With the current system, a user is more inclined to file a report, or fix the problem immediately.

    I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here.


    I'm not convinced that what you're actually suggesting will do that? If you're suggesting that everyone needs to have filesystem access, install node, npm, and a bunch of modules first then it's not an improvement at all.

    No, this will not work on an iPhone or whatever. You would need NodeJS installed.

    You're coming at this from the point of view of a node.js developer and assuming it's way behind Tessel because it's not what you're used to. But the reality is that they are aimed at very different areas... Tessel is going after node.js devs and that's great - but Espruino is about creating things quickly and easily without having to learn a bunch of extra tools.

    I want to first point out I'm not saying Espruino is "behind" Tessel. Please forgive me if I gave that impression. I understand they are different tools.

    Perhaps what I didn't understand is that "ease of use" is paramount to the project.

    With the "alternate" workflow I detailed, you should probably know a little more about what you're doing, but regardless, the interaction with npm would probably be obscured behind the IDE. Maybe you missed the bit about "keeping what we have" which would not require the user to even know npm was behind the scenes.

    But, it sounds like, at the current time, using npm is a no-go because we don't want to rely upon a filesystem? If the likelihood of a user programming an Espruino from an iPad is greater than the likelihood of a user wanting npm integration, so be it. I have no data in either direction.

    Please don't do that, at least try and leverage EspruinoTools. I can pretty much guarantee that you'll lose interest in a few months, and then it'll just be sitting there on NPM along with node-espruino, grunt-espruino and espruino-cli as yet another tool that uploads 'hello world' but fails when faced with anything more complex.

    Please consider this constructive criticism: I began writing my own CLI tool because leveraging EspruinoTools is extremely awkward. It's not an npm module, so I can't add it as a dependency. It's not versioned, so even if I did, it'd be a crapshoot. It doesn't seem to expose an isolated API layer, which means you need packages like jsdom to even get at them. It exports global variables and doesn't use something like AMD, so I'm not sure whether I need to load the whole thing at once or not. My hope was to actually develop an isolated API layer, wherein I could lift code from EspruinoTools, and build a CLI on top of it (cause that's easy), but publish it as a standalone module which could be extended in any which-way.

    Ideally, it would become the "first-class" API for communication with the Espruino, and the Web IDE itself would simply consume it. But without some sort of buy-in, I don't see the project as having much future. I think I mentioned ino, the cmd-line tool for Arduino. They don't work closely with the IDE team--don't have "buy-in"--and thusly have continuous, never-ending issues of the exact nature you're talking about.

    (In a perfect world, the Arduino IDE and ino would be built upon a common codebase, like what I'm proposing here)

    I will relinquish the espruino module if/when you want to do something with it, but we probably shouldn't leave it empty or in a "placeholder" state to avoid squatting. You can email me about this if you wish; I can't seem to figure out how to "subscribe" to a thread here.

    Gordon, I would like to apologize for coming out of left-field on this, and trying to jam the Espruino into a hole which it clearly does not fit. As I wrote, my point of view is as a software engineer. Hardware is a hobby of mine. I'm interested in increasing accessibility of hardware to software developers, so they can more readily apply their skills to the platform(s). Hardware which supports high-level languages is a great start; I suppose that's what drew me to Espruino originally. Another way is to support common toolchains and methodologies. There are a lot of things.

    (I do sense a general unease about the influx of software developers to hardware, perhaps spurred by the popularity of the Arduino. I am concerned I won't get much support in my efforts. Some of this venom comes from garden-variety elitists who don't like the "dumbing down" of hardware, but others arguments include a lot of "ain't-broke-don't-fix-it".

    For example, I'd smile if the official Espruino modules each had unit tests. Funny, right? Maybe to some it seems like extra complexity, or simply unnecessary. When you're hacking on a breadboard, you don't have a second breadboard that asserts the first breadboard works--you just look at it, and if it works, it works. I don't feel that the same strategy works well for software libraries, even if those libraries run on a microcontroller.)

    Anyway, I don't need to spend another 2 hours writing this post... :D


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